tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post168167308580101483..comments2023-10-23T09:51:37.441-05:00Comments on Blog of Pro-Porn Activism: An Interesting Discussion on "Barely Legal" PornRenegade Evolutionhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17905949172886730262noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-77433602186217190232009-01-04T21:08:00.000-06:002009-01-04T21:08:00.000-06:00Okay, much as I'd love to leave this alone, all th...Okay, much as I'd love to leave this alone, all the faux outrage over it squicks me worse than the picture itself.<BR/><BR/>No offense to Vicky, who is a friend and colleague to both Nina and me, but I think her crusade is misguided and enables those who would just as soon put her out of business as they would the creators of the image that has everyone's knickers in such a twist.<BR/><BR/>I'm particularly unhappy with the suggestion that those who find such material objectionable should bring pressure to bear on credit card companies and acquiring banks to refuse processing to sites posting said material. That is simply privatizing censorship and she really should know better than to propose these measures without considering the possible blowback to herself and others engaged in completely unrelated production activities.<BR/><BR/>Censorship-by-bank has put a number of otherwise completely legally compliant BDSM Web sites out of business over the past half dozen years. Friends of mine who depicted nothing more than consensual kink between responsible adults have been stripped of their ability to earn livings with a single email from a credit card processor. Once one such processor bans a content provider, that provider finds it very difficult, if not impossible, to obtain processing from any other source.<BR/><BR/>And because these are private sector transactions that don't involve law enforcement intervention, there is no First Amendment remedy applicable to situations of this type. The bank has a right, just like a diner, to refuse service to anyone other than for discriminatory reasons covered under laws involving public accommodations that would clearly be inapplicable here.<BR/><BR/>The price of supporting true freedom of expression is the toleration of expression we find repugnant, whether neo-Nazi propaganda or pseudo-kiddie porn in which no actual minors are depicted. There is no gray area here. It's a hard, bright line that once crossed allows no retreat.<BR/><BR/>A lot of Vicky's fans felt a need, it would seem, to go to extravagant lengths to denounce the image she posted and anyone who would find it arousing in a fashion that struck me as, perhaps, protesting just a bit too much. Could it be that some things they like to look at have the same affect on other viewers? My guess: quite likely. <BR/><BR/>Would these same individuals care to see the porn industry attempt to self-censor every kind of porn that somebody finds offensive, including everything from kink.com to Max Hardcore? When they rant about boycotts and putting the arm on acquiring banks and heckling the larger players in the industry into taking some kind of collective action against material that is entirely legal just because it bothers some folks somewhere that is exactly the danger they entertain.<BR/><BR/>Nope, it's not my kind of thing, but many things out there aren't someone else's kind of thing and that is not and should not be the test of a particular genre of pornography's right to exist, or for those making it to be able to turn a buck from it. <BR/><BR/>The law is quite clear, and has been challenged and upheld in numerous court proceedings. Depictions of adults as if they were minors are legal, period. It they're over 18, they've a right to get paid for performing or posing for this kind of material, producers and directors have a right to distribute it and consumers have a right to acquire and possess it.<BR/><BR/>I don't think there is any demonstrable social harm that justifies attempts to circumvent that body of law by other means in order to suppress images that a majority of porn consumers feel obligated to express their outrage over. I think the issues involved are their own and not really relevant to the larger question concerning whether or not such material poses a threat to society of such a magnitude as to invalidate legal protections for free speech among consenting adults.<BR/><BR/>I do not believe that pictures inspire anti-social behavior, or that those not given to sexually abusing children will be moved to do so by looking at such images. I don't even believe that such images would provoke that behavior in those who get off to fantasies of this type. Nor, for the record, do I think this stuff offers a let-off valve for pedophiles who might become actual predators if denied it. That argument displays the same kind of misunderstanding of sexual predation as the arguments raised against the pictures.<BR/><BR/>Pedophile predators have been around since long before pornography became widely available and will be around no matter what is or is not done to limit the availability of ersatz pedo-porn. In fact, such predators tend to thrive in environments where porn is largely unavailable, such as in repressive religious communities, though again, I reject any spurious causality assumed by the association of these coincidental facts. I merely point them out by way of emphasizing how little one thing has to do with the other.<BR/><BR/>It still comes down to the same thing as any other kind of lawfully made pornography with me. If you don't like it, don't look. Campaigning against this or that type of porn just provides talking points for those who want to ban all porn. They take a few quotes out of context to say "see, even pornographers, scum though they all are, admit that much of what their industry produces is vile, disgusting, dangerous, evil and should be annihilated along with all who consume it."<BR/><BR/>Somebody out there has some theory about why MILF porn is particularly perverse, dangerous and unwholesome. I can think of some labored rationalizations for such a view without even laboring very hard. How happy would Vicky, or Nina or any of us be to see that banner raised high?<BR/><BR/>As someone who constantly has to defend BDSM porn against specious accusations of violence and rape enabling, I really have exactly zero use for this kind of "my porn is cool but yours is fucked up" reasoning.<BR/><BR/>The law sets a reasonable standard where the age of consent is concerned that applies to the making of porn or to joining the army or to getting married. <BR/><BR/>Here's a radical idea. Why don't we just accept the sanity of that standard, feel free to express our opinions of what is done within the confines of that standard, and leave the organized propagandizing and crusading to porn's innumerable deadly enemies, rather than giving them aid and comfort so we can then become their next targets?Ernest Greenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14371385468484866133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-76827195191227062442009-01-04T20:19:00.001-06:002009-01-04T20:19:00.001-06:00Anthony:Yeah, that isn't appealing to me at all, a...Anthony:<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that isn't appealing to me at all, and it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing most ageplayers I've met are doing, either.<BR/><BR/>I'm still not quite convinced pedophiles would be interested, though, and remain truly unconvinced that such stuff gets otherwise uninterested men gung-ho about sex with prepubescent children.<BR/><BR/>As far as the "barely legal" I've heard about, it's stuff like IACB is linking there.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-40138962600051941022009-01-04T20:19:00.000-06:002009-01-04T20:19:00.000-06:00Anthony:Yeah, that isn't appealing to me at all, a...Anthony:<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that isn't appealing to me at all, and it doesn't strike me as the sort of thing most ageplayers I've met are doing, either.<BR/><BR/>I'm still not quite convinced pedophiles would be interested, though, and remain truly unconvinced that such stuff gets otherwise uninterested men gung-ho about sex with prepubescent children.<BR/><BR/>As far as the "barely legal" I've heard about, it's stuff like IACB is linking there.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-91498674785419496552009-01-04T20:02:00.000-06:002009-01-04T20:02:00.000-06:00I don't like the infantilizing shit either, but on...I don't like the infantilizing shit either, but on the other hand, I don't see how the model in question could be realistically mistaken for actually pre-pubescent, as some of the commentators on Vicky's blog were saying. It looks clearly (to me, anyway) like somebody who's 18-19 or early 20s who's simply dressed quite young. Which, I suppose, is young enough to skeeve people out when they're deliberately dressed to look younger. Dress an older model in the same outfit, and it would be obvious age-play. (Obvious, except perhaps, to the more clueless anti-porn types, who I've seriously seen say stuff to the effect that a woman of any age who shaves her pubic hair looks passably pre-pubescent and is obviously doing it for pedo appeal.)<BR/><BR/>On another note, there's been some mention in this thread of Hustler <I>Barely Legal</I>. Which for at least the last decade has been more on the <I>barely</I> barely legal side of things – at this point, they're well with in the pornspeak norm of calling any model who looks under 25 a "teen". <A HREF="http://fleshbot.com/348750/flesh-flicks-massage-training-youre-doing-it-wrong/" REL="nofollow">Here's</A> a post that Fleshbot did last year with a clip from one of Hustler's <I>Barely Legal</I> videos. Other than the title and some lines about being "18", there's really very little there that separates it from more mainstream non-"barely legal" porn.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-70073674795701065372009-01-04T11:34:00.000-06:002009-01-04T11:34:00.000-06:00Just to update y'all....Vicky has went ahead and p...Just to update y'all....<BR/><BR/>Vicky has went ahead and posted another entry at her MySpace page where she attaches a photo portraying an participant in the kind of film that she was ranting against.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=133260377&blogID=460778705&Mytoken=ECB2B3D9-E30B-4DF5-BB82F109AFF733A756275314" REL="nofollow">link</A><BR/><BR/>While I still do agree with the consensus here that it shouldn't be banned or that such videos are so intimately linked to child abuse...but it is nevertheless more than a bit skeezy and a little bit triggering. Look at your own risk.<BR/><BR/>Like she said, it may be legal, and I wouldn't punish either the movie's producers nor its consumers one bit....but that doesn't mean that it isn't more than a little gross. <BR/><BR/>Ugh.<BR/><BR/><BR/>AnthonyAnthony Kennersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00103420620416144653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-12750958482026128942008-12-28T21:18:00.001-06:002008-12-28T21:18:00.001-06:00Also, what the fuck is wrong with being atypical, ...Also, what the fuck is wrong with being atypical, anyway?Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-66827975529033189202008-12-28T21:18:00.000-06:002008-12-28T21:18:00.000-06:00But I guess the thing for me is: I really do not t...But I guess the thing for me is: I really do not think teens are little adults, and I think that the arguments I usually hear for "ephebophilia is harmless" tends to bank on that supposition.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-43446865617848607192008-12-28T21:14:00.000-06:002008-12-28T21:14:00.000-06:00What this means for age of consent and consent law...What this means for age of consent and consent laws, I honestly don't know. I'm not convinced there's any way to get the consent laws right. "18" doesn't strike me as a particularly thought out number, but I personally have no suggestions.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-71317025909931718752008-12-28T21:12:00.000-06:002008-12-28T21:12:00.000-06:00"Albeit there was a couple subsets where there ten..."Albeit there was a couple subsets where there tended to be negative outcomes 1) girls who were essentially "loved and left", which is in keeping with what you were saying, and 2) kids who were active prior to their general peer group, generally pre-14/15 years old."<BR/><BR/>And I knew people in both of these groups who seemed quite distraught about their experiences, including one teen who had serious problems with the shame she felt for being (or at least, thinking she was) the only non-virgin in her peer group.<BR/><BR/>I also know people who seemed fine.<BR/><BR/>But those are teens who had sex, usually with slightly older teens. I'd need a lot more data to know how things generally work with older adults, though as I've said several times now, I do think it's entirely possible for such experiences and relationships to not be problematic (or at least not be any worse than any other relationship.)<BR/><BR/>I haven't read Levene's book, though I've been thinking for a long time that I should.<BR/><BR/>I do strongly feel, though, that any relationship where there are clear power dynamics (and I do think age differences of the kind we're discussing create them) should be carefully set up and lived out -- and I am skeptical that, say, fourteen year olds can do that kind of self-protecting, reflective negotiation. Most of the younger of-age kinksters I've met can't.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-48332861061874412952008-12-28T21:00:00.000-06:002008-12-28T21:00:00.000-06:00Well, as a matter of fact, when you're talking abo...Well, as a matter of fact, when you're talking about teenage sex in general, there was a study published last year that concluded most teenagers do not suffer negative mental health consequences. Albeit there was a couple subsets where there tended to be negative outcomes 1) girls who were essentially "loved and left", which is in keeping with what you were saying, and 2) kids who were active prior to their general peer group, generally pre-14/15 years old. Descriptions of the study here:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://cla.umn.edu/news/reach/allreach.php?entry=121712" REL="nofollow">link</A><BR/><A HREF="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/health/05baka.html" REL="nofollow">link</A><BR/><BR/>What I see from that study is pretty in keeping with not only my own experiences, but a lot of other people I know who were sexually active at that age. (Albeit, I don't know a lot of those people now, so I don't know what they would have said about their early sexual experiences later on.)<BR/><BR/>As for relationships between teenagers and older people, Judith Levene's book <I>Harmful to Minors</I> cites several studies that find that such relationships are not as inherently harmful as generally assumed, though there's really not a whole lot of study on that question because the whole area is a political minefield.<BR/><BR/>And let me say what I'm skeptical of is the kind of "silent majority" arguments I see constantly in arguments about sexuality – the argument that most people are harmed by such and such sexual behavior, and if you're experiences don't conform to that, you're obviously a rare minority who's experiences don't count. Well, I say, let the other side prove it. I have my life experience, they have their experiences and beliefs, and if I'm going to change my mind, I damn well want to see some solid data that says my experiences are wholly atypical.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-38522252690044639392008-12-28T19:22:00.000-06:002008-12-28T19:22:00.000-06:00"Perhaps true, but then you're making an argument ..."Perhaps true, but then you're making an argument for a sexual double-standard. Which I think really paints feminists into a corner."<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure it does, because all I am saying is that an older partner has to be very careful given hir younger partner's possible vulnerabilities. Which is the case for anybody anywhere anyway.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-64516267731098889972008-12-28T19:21:00.000-06:002008-12-28T19:21:00.000-06:00"Try that counter with arguments against BDSM and ..."Try that counter with arguments against BDSM and sex work and see how that sounds."<BR/><BR/>*shrug* Well:<BR/><BR/>1. If my partner and I are the only healthy SMers on the planet, and you and your older paramour were the only healthy teen-and-adult couple, that's still allowable under what I said, because I said "one case is not a trend," not "that must have harmed you."<BR/><BR/>2. If someone said it about BDSM, I could easily cite *lots* of other people in committed relationships, communities, etc. and explain how and why I think these people's relationships are healthy and no one is being coerced.<BR/><BR/>I have never seen you cite anything but your own experience as an argument for the general healthiness of these sorts of relationships.<BR/><BR/>So I remain skeptical. You don't have to like it, but there it is.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-79276175010086797152008-12-28T19:17:00.000-06:002008-12-28T19:17:00.000-06:00"I'm pretty sure many fans are older men (and perh..."I'm pretty sure many fans are older men (and perhaps some women) who like to look at young flesh and for all sorts of reasons having to do with age and relative attractiveness, can only see young women like this in porn. And that, in itself, I don't think is something deserving of condemnation."<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I agree.<BR/><BR/>Or... well, I could be ignorant of what "barely legal" is. I was under the impression it generally depicted people as if they were fresh-faced teens, not prepubescents.<BR/><BR/>And that... I think there is an Old Lech market for that, some of whom are creepy and others of whom are probably reliving adolescent lusts or wanting to fantasize about the rolls in the hay they didn't get in high school and early college because they were an ugly nerd.<BR/><BR/>Which may be kind of gross in some cases, but *wrong*? No.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-27425936453607817532008-12-28T16:33:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:33:00.000-06:00"Also, I would agree with many feminists that it m...<I>"Also, I would agree with many feminists that it may be less risky for someone who's a guy to be involved in more intense sexual situations at a younger age. Girls and young women are often kept innocent and vulnerable in some really odd ways, and sold a bill of goods about true love in a strong way that boys aren't."</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps true, but then you're making an argument for a sexual double-standard. Which I think really paints feminists into a corner.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-47608743040919012222008-12-28T16:31:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:31:00.000-06:00"Try that counter with arguments against BDSM and ...<I>"Try that counter with arguments against BDSM and sex work and see how that sounds."</I><BR/><BR/>I meant to say, see how that sounds as a counter to arguments for consensual BDSM and sex work. And I'm sure you've heard such counter-arguments many times.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-55044417712232374092008-12-28T16:29:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:29:00.000-06:00"IACB: I don't think you know from one case that t...<I>"IACB: I don't think you know from one case that this is not harmful in the majority of cases."</I><BR/><BR/>Try that counter with arguments against BDSM and sex work and see how that sounds. <BR/><BR/>And anyway, where's the large-scale study showing my experience is atypical? And even if that's the case, do exceptions have no meaning?iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-57993739517890946472008-12-28T16:26:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:26:00.000-06:00"2) I'd say that the majority of the consumers of ...<I>"2) I'd say that the majority of the consumers of Barely Legal porn aren't older men looking for fantasies to stoke their pedophilic lusts, but young men of the same age just looking for similar type women."</I><BR/><BR/>Honestly, I'm not so sure. I'm sure a lot of fans of this stuff are men in the same age group, but I'm pretty sure many fans are older men (and perhaps some women) who like to look at young flesh and for all sorts of reasons having to do with age and relative attractiveness, can only see young women like this in porn. And that, in itself, I don't think is something deserving of condemnation.<BR/><BR/>I don't think you have to be a big time EvPsych proponent to see that youth and a hard body will always have an appeal to many people of all ages. Although a lot of feminists (especially the ones who think they can change <I>everything</I> just by changing the "social construct") might disagree with me (to put it mildly) on this, I don't think that is something that will ever change, really.<BR/><BR/><I>"3) Even if there is the typical "dirty old man" using BL porn to get his peculiar rocks off, I still say that it is a suitable alternative to him actually going out and targeting REAL girls. At least, BL porn serves as a release for such fantasies....in the same way that other forms of "extreme porn" serve a similar function. Better to have him jerking off to Internet porn than to be going around real people imposing his desires on unsuspecting victims."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't buy the "catharsis" theory either. What little evidence I've seen given for it relies on highly suspect correlative studies that rely on exactly the same dodgy correlation/causality error and lack of multivariate control that many of the "porn increases rape" studies do. I don't think that there's really any evidence that a particular kind of porn makes it more or less likely for someone to act out a fantasy that would be socially inappropriate if actually made real. It just means that they have that fantasy.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-83283450881959659352008-12-28T16:06:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:06:00.000-06:00IACB: I don't think you know from one case that th...IACB: I don't think you know from one case that this is not harmful in the majority of cases.<BR/><BR/>Also, I would agree with many feminists that it may be less risky for someone who's a guy to be involved in more intense sexual situations at a younger age. Girls and young women are often kept innocent and vulnerable in some really odd ways, and sold a bill of goods about true love in a strong way that boys aren't.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-24008732975487714502008-12-28T16:00:00.000-06:002008-12-28T16:00:00.000-06:00Trinity wrote:"Teenage brains are actually *not* f...Trinity wrote:<BR/><BR/><I>"Teenage brains are actually *not* fully developed.<BR/><BR/>(Though that raises some interesting questions about the maturity of the 18 year old brain, too.)"</I><BR/><BR/>That is, to some degree, true from a developmental standpoint, but it can be overstated and used to justify a degree of restriction and paternalism that may not be warranted in a many cases.<BR/><BR/>If you look at the concept of "critical periods" and cognitive shifts ala Piaget and that school, there is a cognitive shift that occurs, on average, somewhere in the 18-21 year old age range. This was a fairly recent discovery, and it had been previously thought that one went through one's final cognitive shift just before adolescence, into what Piaget called the "formal operational" stage, where one acquires the capacity for highly abstract thought. More recent brain and cognitive research has established that there's another cognitive shift one goes through in late adolescence/early adulthood, this time having to do with abstractions having to do with judgement and long-term planning.<BR/><BR/>But cognitively speaking, a developmentally "normal" teenager is psychologically closer to an adult than a child. There's a good reason to not have teenagers make life-changing decisions, but I'm not convinced that decisions to have sex or not are always necessarily that weighty. (Obviously, the sex = intimacy/sex is such serious fucking business folks might think differently, but obviously, I don't take that POV very seriously.) Also, there's a not small percentage of adults who never develop postformal or even formal operational cognitive ability, yet they have full legal standing as adults when it comes to decision making, including sexual consent.<BR/><BR/>Perspectives on how much you should shelter teenager will obviously vary – I'm not a parent, just somebody who did a lot of "inappropriate" stuff as a teenager and feel I'm a better person for it. <BR/><BR/>I had an experience about a year ago, though, which shed some light on this for me. Not with sex but with drugs, actually. (And sorry if <I>that</I> squicks people out.) When I was a teenager through my young adult years, I had a number of psychedelic experiences with psilocybin and LSD which were very positive. About a year ago, I did a small does of psilocybin mushrooms for the first time in many years and was plunged into a total existential hell for 6 hours, followed by another 24 hours of what I can only describe as clinical depression. Every adult concern, worry, and body ache I'd been harboring came to the surface and was made acutely manifest.<BR/><BR/>Now when I was much younger, and at an age where by "adult" standards I "wasn't ready" for such things, my experiences were much more positive. There's a lot to be said for youthful resilience and even foolhardiness, and making use of it while you have it.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-74566287360952038572008-12-28T15:58:00.000-06:002008-12-28T15:58:00.000-06:00I do think there's a difference between ephebophil...<I>I do think there's a difference between ephebophilia and pedophilia, and I do think that pedophilia is harmful in ways ephebophilia probably isn't. But I'm not so sure that that means I'm OK with fifteen-year-olds having sex either.<BR/><BR/>So I guess I half-agree and half don't. I mean on the one hand, yes there are fifteen-year-olds who ARE having sex, and yeah, some of those are having sex with people who are older. And yeah, I'm sure that some of them are not harmed psychologically by it. But I don't know that I'm convinced that concern about youth having sex is misplaced."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, as somebody who was actually having sex, very good sex in fact, at exactly the age you're describing, yeah, I do fall out on the "its generally not a problem" side. <BR/><BR/>The first time I had sex, it was actually in one of these "inappropriate" scenarios – I was 14, the woman I was with was 25. In retrospect, her interest in me was creepy, but that had more to do with the fact that she was a fucking nutcase than her actual age, something I figured out quickly and why I left the relationship unceremoniously. But I did not feel then, and do not feel now, that I was in any sense a victim. I could have said no and I could have, and did, leave the relationship when I wanted to. Whether its the same judgment call I might have made when I was "older and wiser" seems to me beside the point.<BR/><BR/>And as for the idea that she should have been legally punished for that, I really don't see why. I wouldn't have wanted that, and the reality of the situation is if the law had somehow gotten involved, my life would have been absolutely turned upside down. So, sorry, not a big fan of "zero tolerance" age of consent law enforcement.<BR/><BR/>When I was 15, I was having my first serious LTR, including lots of sex, this time with a girlfriend my age. (And a big thumbs down to anybody who would condescendingly refer to this as "sexual experimentation" – sexual experimentation is what two 11 year-olds playing "doctor" do. I was having <I>sex</I> when I was a teenager.) I certainly would not have taken very kindly to the suggestion that I shouldn't be having sex at all. Thankfully, we both had very tolerant parents who apparently didn't think that way – we could both stay over at each other's houses and didn't have to be sneaky about our relationship.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-86256791554720574532008-12-28T13:57:00.000-06:002008-12-28T13:57:00.000-06:00"Once again, I don't think sex between adolescents..."Once again, I don't think sex between adolescents and post-adolescents constitutes "pedophilia", and the conflation of teenagers with children sexually is part and parcel with a moral panic around this issue that's absolutely spun out of control. Its now to the point where interest in *young adults*, if you're older than that age group, is treated as "pedophilia". I think that's patently ridiculous."<BR/><BR/>Hrm. If we're talking about actual ages of people having sex, or wanting to have sex with actual people:<BR/><BR/>I do think there's a difference between ephebophilia and pedophilia, and I do think that pedophilia is harmful in ways ephebophilia probably isn't. But I'm not so sure that that means I'm OK with fifteen-year-olds having sex either.<BR/><BR/>So I guess I half-agree and half don't. I mean on the one hand, yes there are fifteen-year-olds who ARE having sex, and yeah, some of those are having sex with people who are older. And yeah, I'm sure that some of them are not harmed psychologically by it. But I don't know that I'm convinced that concern about youth having sex is misplaced.<BR/><BR/>Conflating it with pedophilia IS misplaced. As, I think, is policing people who are of age for fantasies. But having the concern, and setting the cutoff point based on the concern, isn't wrong to me. Teenage brains are actually *not* fully developed.<BR/><BR/>(Though that raises some interesting questions about the maturity of the 18 year old brain, too.)Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-11064021829161077462008-12-28T13:45:00.000-06:002008-12-28T13:45:00.000-06:00"I'm not saying that I agree with her, but she did...<I>"I'm not saying that I agree with her, but she did particularly say that she was targeting only a particular form of "teen porn" where legal performers were made to look like prepubescent (that is, pre-teen) children. At least, I did not in any way perceive her as condemning all "barely legal" porn as the end-all cause of pedophilia."</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that part is well taken - I personally don't like a lot of the "kiddie" trappings found in a lot of "barely legal" porn, even when I happen to like the model in question. Notably the ubiquitous fucking stuffed animals. -gag- Its why, for that age group, models like Ariel Rebel or Liz Vicious, or many of the Abby Winters models have much more appeal to me, since they act and dress their age in the stuff they appear in.<BR/><BR/>I'm not entirely sure what the producers of the "18 going on 10" school of porn are thinking. Probably, they're probably conflating attraction to young women with pedophilia just as much as their critics are, and catering to that.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-51326824413219435692008-12-28T13:24:00.000-06:002008-12-28T13:24:00.000-06:00"Ee, didn't make clear that the "What about someon...<I>"Ee, didn't make clear that the "What about someone who's creepy?" and "What about IACB?" weren't supposed to be linked, there. Whether or not IACB is creepy is a different question than "Do creeps exist?" :-P"</I><BR/><BR/>Um, thanks, I guess. <BR/><BR/>My attitudes toward this are on record. Once again, I don't think sex between adolescents and post-adolescents constitutes "pedophilia", and the conflation of teenagers with children sexually is part and parcel with a moral panic around this issue that's absolutely spun out of control. Its now to the point where interest in *young adults*, if you're older than that age group, is treated as "pedophilia". I think that's patently ridiculous. <BR/><BR/>I think that adolescence represents the "buffer" between childhood and adulthood. At some point in the 13-18 year range, bodies mature and most people will become sexually active. Which, of course, absolutely does not mean that anybody under 18 should be performing in porn for a whole host of social factors. But if somebody 18 years or older could pass for 16, what of it? In my opinion, that's the case of a young adult appealing to a fantasy that's psychologically normal, but just doesn't happen to be politically correct under the arbitrary standards of the time.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I do emphasize "arbitrary standards of the times", because attitudes about this were very different not all that long ago, historically speaking. Have a look at "Manhatten", "Blame it on Rio", or "Private Lessons" for examples of attitudes about this kind of thing in the 70s and 80s. "Hard Candy" would exemplify attitudes today. The pendulum could just as well swing back.iacbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267608319896053702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-61475710304154819542008-12-27T22:00:00.000-06:002008-12-27T22:00:00.000-06:00Anthony:Point taken, but honestly I don't have any...Anthony:<BR/><BR/>Point taken, but honestly I don't have any issues with ageplay -- which is basically what I consider that kind of porn to be.<BR/><BR/>And I reacted strongly to the "raping daughters" style comment because I know people who that's happened to, and it wasn't because Daddy saw porn of it.<BR/><BR/>There's a *lot* more than "so and so looked cute in a pinafore on my DVD" going on there.Trinityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06846032433424879965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385392963347857134.post-43619114217795584282008-12-27T20:37:00.000-06:002008-12-27T20:37:00.000-06:00Trin: Before you bring the hammer down on Vicky, p...Trin: <BR/><BR/>Before you bring the hammer down on Vicky, perhaps you should read what she actually said.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that I agree with her, but she did particularly say that she was targeting only a particular form of "teen porn" where legal performers were made to look like prepubescent (that is, pre-teen) children. At least, I did not in any way perceive her as condemning all "barely legal" porn as the end-all cause of pedophilia.<BR/><BR/>Also, in the comments section there, someone mentioned Sasha Grey as an example of a teenage starlet who seems to have negotiated the industry quite well. Vicky's response was to the extent of "Well, yeah, she seems to be doing well now..but what will happen down the road? Will she end up many other young performers hating her life and becoming the useful tools of antiporn activists and ex-porn fundies like Shelley Lubben?" <BR/><BR/>Personally, I do think that Vicky's heart is in the right place, and she does have a point about how seedy and sick people could get the wrong ideas from watching some brands of porn. And I do think that all of us would agree that eroticizing 10 year olds (and, in the example she used in her post, taking pics of 7 year olds in the restroom) crosses the line from edgy play into outright pedophilia.<BR/><BR/>And, it should be noted that in NO case does Vicky EVER advocate censorship or state laws against even those sites she sees as abusicve, she only calls for porn consumers to use their judgment and avoid such sites.<BR/><BR/>Feel free to disagree with her if you wish (and I certainly with all respect and love do), but let's save the blowtorch for those who really deserve it.<BR/><BR/><BR/>AnthonyAnthony Kennersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00103420620416144653noreply@blogger.com