Perspectives on Porn: or, why it helps to know what the hell you're talking about

This week, Huffington Post featured an interview with Nona Willis-Aronowitz on her recent book Girldrive. For those not familiar with her, she is none other than the scion of the Aronowitz and Willis who's now making a splash in her own right as a writer and journalist. She has also apparently written a senior thesis on the social history of 70's porn, something I hope she sees fit to publish someday. Her book Girldrive includes a short interview with Rebecca Rosenfelt, proprietor of the one of my favorite blogs, Porn Perspectives.

Unfortunately, the interviewer, Chauncey Zalkin, basically takes this background as a starting point for an anti-porn diatribe and condescending dismissal of sex-positive feminism. She singles out as "ludicrous" Rosenfelt's statements comparing Jenna Jameson's position in the porn industry to Oprah Winfrey's in television. Aronowitz manages gets a few good points in, but its quite clear Zalkin is pretty much dominating the discussion, never a good thing if you're supposedly carrying out an interview. Its also pretty clear that when somebody writes stuff like "Porn is a mammoth industry and most of it is comprised of drug addicted young women without much if any support system," they're not exactly writing about the subject from the most informed point of view.

Not to be outdone, Rebecca has put together a response over on Porn Perspectives:

I really don't mean to pick on Chauncey. She doesn't position herself as an expert on porn, so I don't want to overanalyze her every word. She has not thoroughly researched porn or the porn industry, and is basing her ideas on second-hand information and stereotypes. That is totally normal. In fact, I'll make the rest of this post about "Porn Skeptic", which is a stand-in for people like Chauncey who mean well, but don't have the full facts about today's porn industry. I've heard her arguments a million times, and I'd really like to do what I can to take the stale half-truths out of circulation.

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Rebecca's response is a nice takedown of some of the more common anti-porn arguments one sees trotted out these days.

As an aside, I was kind of wondering just who the heck Chauncey Zalkin is and where she was coming from with her charge that porn is this monster industry who's media product was messing up women's body image and everybody's sexuality. A quick look at her prospectus reveals her to be a highly successful member of the advertising industry. Its only the first week of February, and I think I may already have a winner for my 2010 "Pot Calling the Kettle Black" Award.

County Health Throws in The Towel

Now here's a moment to be savored. After several years of ceaseless bloviation about the need to impose condom use in the creation of all sexually explicit media, L.A. County Health Department head Dr. John Fielding has finally called it quits on behalf of the agency he administers. Fielding, whose department has been sued by the grandstanding fund-raisers at Aids Healthcare Foundation for not enforcing an all-condom policy on productions throughout the county, basically told the gang at AHF to take a hike last Tuesday, according to The L.A. Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/02/la-county-cant-require-condoms-for-porn-actors-officials-said.html). AHF's suit had already been dismissed categorically by the L.A. Superior Court back in December, and Fielding at last admitted what he clearly knew all along about the kind of futile campaign his department was being pressured to undertake:

""It is very, very difficult to implement. There are roughly 200 production companies with about...1,200 actors,” said Dr. Jonathan Fielding, the county's public health chief. “All you need is a room and a camera and a bed, basically, to do this kind of shoot, and we have no ability to police this,” according to The LAT's account.

Fielding goes on to point out the obvious: "... that it would be difficult for public health officials to prove if the movies were produced in L.A. County or elsewhere, as producers often do not apply for filming licenses. In a memo to supervisors on Sept. 17, health officials warned such an effort would be costly, as the public health department would need to identify filming sites and monitor compliance, which would require significant staff time."

For a county that's buried in debt, cutting back on basic services and has had to close its largest public hospital under federal court order for providing sub-standard care resulting in needless patient deaths, clearly such an attempt would be a whole case of AHF-funder Lifestyle Condoms stretched end-to-end too far.

Not surprisingly Fielding, who has long advocated action by the state legislature to enforce his vision of an all-condoms-all-the-time porn industry, continues to try and kick the responsibility upstairs. Like County Supervisor Zev Yaroslavsky, whose turf includes Porn Valley, Fielding favors a statewide statute mandating universal condom use in porn, though he's been repeatedly made aware of the very real risks such a law would create if enacted. Fortunately, that doesn't appear too likely. Yaroslavsky concedes that, thus far, "not a single California lawmaker has been willing to sponsor such legislation."

Upstate, where cooler heads seem to be prevailing for the moment, there is little enthusiasm for spending millions of dollars in borrowed money to send state inspectors into the field in search of bare-back video production. The Free Speech Coalition has been dutifully making the industry's case in Sacramento on behalf of our highly effective existing system of voluntary safeguards built around regular STD testing, and warning of the possible jeopardy to which conflicting legislation might expose that system. So far, the message seems to be prevailing.

However, it's a bit early to break out the champagne and call this whole ridiculous campaign history. Cal-OSHA, even after a stinging rebuff from Alameda Superior Court Judge Judge Winifred Smith for seeking to compel The Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation (AIM) to surrender confidential client records in order to facilitate its witch-hunt against porn producers, continues to insist it has jurisdiction to apply standards created for medical facilities to porn shoots. Cal-OSHA officials claim they can still stage surprise inspections on sets, issue citations and levy large fines despite the inconvenient lack of any enabling legislation extending their authority to this particular industry, as state law requires.

As a result, no producer really knows whether or not it's safe to shoot anywhere in California, and until the higher authorities of the state government rein in this wayward bureaucracy on a mission from god, the threat of heavy-handed intervention by unauthorized state employees acting out their personal agendas will remain.

But given the way Fielding, the supervisors and the legislature, all burdened with much more pressing problems, are seeking to put as much open water as possible between themselves and this issue, it would seem that yet another attempt to crush the porn business under the weight of ideologically motivated regulation appears doomed to failure.

These incomplete victories have not come without cost, literally. AIM is barely able to operate its clinic as it struggles to pay its legal fees resulting from the Cal-OSHA litigation and some large companies have already begun to look at shooting in other states to avoid those random drop-ins from the nice folks at Cal-OSHA, taking money and jobs away from the local economy and conducting their business out of the sight of the porn community at large. How this will make anyone safer or improve the lives of porn performers in any way has yet to be explained.

We can only hope that those above the agency heads creating this still-ominous atmosphere will soon send a clear message to their subordinates to operate within their legal authority or start brushing up their resumes. Clearly, Dr. Fielding has gotten that message at last.

Two New Studies Find Benefit Rather Than Harm in Porn

Porn haters love to make vague references to "proof" and "scientific evidence" educed by "numerous studies" to the effect that pornography is harmful to individuals and society at large. But when confronted about the sources of this mountain of proof that supports that opinion, they understandably rabbit at the first opportunity. As even Gail Dines admits, there is no objective, peer-reviewed scientific research that validates the harm claims of the anti-porn camp.

In fact, the most recent investigations by respectable scientists not in league with this or that ideological camp fails to find any persuasive evidence that porn exerts a damaging influence on the public at large. Check out this post on Psychology Today's blog by Dr. Gad Saad:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201001/pornography-beneficial-or-detrimental

He cites two newly released surveys concerning the harmful effects of porn that, after much meticulous examination, find none.

The second of the two studies, published in he International Journal of Law and Psychiatry, yields a lovely quote from author Milton Diamond, who painstakingly reviewed the existing research on the topic: " "Indeed, the data reported and reviewed suggests that the thesis is myth and, if anything, there is an inverse causal relationship between an increase in pornography and sex crimes. Further, considering the findings of studies of community standards and wide spread usage of SEM [sexually explicit material], it is obvious that in local communities as nationally and internationally, porn is available, widely used and felt appropriate for voluntary adult consumption. If there is a consensus against pornography it is in regard to any SEM that involves children or minors in its production or consumption. Lastly we see that objections to erotic materials are often made on the basis of supposed actual, social or moral harm to women. No such cause and effect has been demonstrated with any negative consequence."

But the more significant results may have come from a particular survey conducted in Denmark by Gert Martin Held and Neil Malmuth of a gender-balanced sampling of 688 adults "found that respondents construed the viewing of hardcover pornography as beneficial to their sex lives, their attitudes towards sex, their perceptions and attitudes towards members of the opposite sex, toward life in general, and over all. The obtained beneficial effects were statistically significant for all but one measure across both sexes," as Saad summarizes the results, going on to add: " Now here is the kicker: A positive correlation was obtained between the amount of hardcore pornography that was viewed and the impact of the benefits reaped. This positive correlation was found for both sexes. In other words, the more that one watched porn, the stronger the benefits (for both sexes)!"

Why is this study so important? Check out the authors. Neil Malmuth, who teaches at UCLA, is frequently cited by the anti-porn camp for his earlier studies that can be interpreted as indicating that viewing "aggressive pornography" may lead to some slight bump in aggressive ideation by the viewers. As Saad notes, "Neil Malamuth is a highly regarded scholar of pornography who has often argued for its supposed ill effects. Hence, if there exists a possibility of an a priori bias here, it would be in hoping to find that pornography yields negative consequences." But Malmuth, who is nothing if not a dedicated scientist, couldn't find those negative consequences.

Having been a guest speaker for professor Malmuth's classes and come in for some sharp questioning from the teacher, I'd say he's a lovely guy but by no means porn-friendly. He's spent years trying to establish a link between pornography consumption and anti-social behavior and now concedes to having found pretty much the opposite. I don't believe for a second that porn-bashers with an academic bent will quit invoking his prior work to prop up their arguments, but Malmuth, who doesn't much care to be dragged into political debates one way or the other, has now provided an effective rejoinder for the misappropriation of his previous research.

We're grateful to Dr. Saad for bringing these studies to the attention of the general public, not only because they tend to validate our own views, but because there is, in fact, so little good science of any kind regarding porn we can only be glad to see some wherever it shows up. It's not easy to get funding for non-political work in this field of study and those who have pursued it anyway to verifiable results that contradict their own expectations are to be applauded.

Greta Christina on "Can Watching Porn Be Cheating?"

Over at the Blowfish Blog, the always-insightful Greta Christina takes on the issue of porn use in relationships:

Normally I adore Scarleteen, and recommend them unreservedly as a source of sex info and advice. And I feel a bit churlish calling them out on this one, since I found out about it because they were kind enough to link to me in their “wide range of feminist views of porn” section. If their advice had been about almost any other form of sexual activity, I would have been right there with them. And when it comes to the lap dances, I think their perspective is valid.

But when it comes to porn, I think they missed the boat.

I’m going to go out on a limb here:

I don’t think anyone has the right to expect their partner not to watch porn.

Why not? Well, let me put it this way. Do people have the right to expect their partners not to masturbate? Or, for that matter, do people have the right to expect their partners not to watch reality TV or read true crime? On their own time, when they don’t have any obligations and their partner isn’t around?

And if not — then why on earth would anyone have the right to expect their partner not to watch porn?

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I elaborate my thoughts on this in the comments section after Greta's post, but basically, I'm more or less in agreement with her on this for the same set of reasons she gives, with the caveat (and nod to the Scarleteen position) that its up to the partners in every individual relationship to determine what's "reasonable" to give up or tolerate from the other partner. (Within the limits of putting up with what constitutes outright abuse by a partner.) I also think that, like attitudes toward meat-eating, religion, or monogamy, attitudes toward porn are one of those issues that its best for partners to be on the same page going into a relationship.

Addendum: Greta Christina follows up on the subject further here. She also has some interesting thoughts on how this relates to the negotiation of monogamy or non-monogamy in relationships here.

Slight Alteration of the Blog Theme

After getting final approval from Ernest and Ren, I've went ahead and updated the blog appearance with a slightly new theme. This is probably not as radical as most expected, but one of the main constraints was that I wanted to keep the header photo at the top...and none of the newer themes that I really wanted would allow me to do that.

So what say thou?? Good enough, or should I go farther??

Juliet "Aunt Peg" Anderson (1938 - 2010) -- Presente

She was one of the original MILF's even before the term was ever popular.

She was one of the most prolific performers of the late 70's and early 80's.

And, as the world knows, she was the one who essentially launched Nina Hartley's career by producing and directing Educating Nina back in 1984.

Unfortunately, Juliet Anderson (aka Aunt Peg) is now no longer with us.

Here's a memorial courtesy of AVN.com:

Juliet 'Aunt Peg' Anderson Dead at Age 71

The legendary star appeared in 84 movies, directed three

Posted Jan 11th 2010 04:50PM by Mark Kernes

BERKELEY—The body of Juliet Carr, better known by her adult career name Juliet Anderson, and even more frequently recognized as one of the characters she portrayed, "Aunt Peg," was discovered this morning in her residence in Berkeley by a friend. The cause of death is not yet known, but the actress suffered for many years with Crohn's disease, which had only recently been diagnosed, though she had suffered from it for most of her life.

"I found her in her bed," said her friend Kevin Fong, who became close to the actress over the last 18 months. "She looked like she was just asleep. There were no empty pill bottles, nothing out of the ordinary. There wasn't any alcohol; her wrists weren't slit; nothing."

Fong had arrived to take the former actress to a doctor's appointment for a colonoscopy that morning to help in the treatment of her Crohn's.

"She had chronic Crohn's disease, and you can only control so much of that with diet," Fong said. "She was a health nut, she was in great shape, and this was a total shock. ... In her case, it was congenital; she had it since she was a little kid, and it stopped her from even going to regular school as a child. it's something she had forever, probably all her life."

Carr's adult career was unusual, to say the least. Born in Burbank in 1938, the diminuitive blonde began acting in adult at the age of 39, when, as an employee at an advertising and engineering firm, she was discovered by famed director Alex DeRenzy, who cast her in his 1978 blockbuster hit Pretty Peaches. Her career took off quickly, and she performed in more than 80 movies over the following 10 years.

Her best-known role, however, was as "Aunt Peg," her character in the movie of the same name. "Aunt Peg" was a Hollywood agent who had an unusual method of choosing her clients and of getting them work, as displayed in Aunt Peg Goes Hollywood and Aunt Peg's Fulfillment. She also appeared in such top hits as Tangerine, Vista Valley PTA, Dixie Ray Hollywood Star, Outlaw Ladies, Taboo 1 & 2, Hustler Video Magazine 1, and in half of the first 24 volumes of the Swedish Erotica series.

Carr also took credit for discovering world-famous star Nina Hartley, having cast her in 1984 in Educating Nina, which Carr directed. However, when she was unable to find distribution for the movie, which she had financed herself, she quit the industry altogether.

"It was a huge undertaking with a strong story, talented actors and superb production values," Carr wrote. "However, this gem was a financial and emotional disaster for me. As the first woman producer of X-rated films, the men who ran that industry were intimidated by me and retaliated by never releasing Educating Nina.  Devastated, I quit the adult entertainment industry."

"This is really sad news," reflected Hartley. "Juliet did put me in the movies all those years ago and was a mentor for several years. I saw her in November up in Berkeley when I did a personal appearance there. She was in fine health; she was happy. We took a couple of pictures together, she flashed her boobs—they were still lovely—and since it has to happen to all of us, I'm grateful that it seemed to happen peacefully without other incident."

"She was the original cougar before 'cougar' was hot," Hartley added.

Carr's life was, for want of a better term, eclectic. According to her website, she followed her American lover to Japan in 1960, married him briefly, became fluent in the Japanese language and even attended the university there. In 1965, she lived in Mexico City and taught English to IBM executives there, and two years later did similar teaching in Athens, Greece. In 1971, she was a "top-ranking" radio producer in Finland, creating programs in English about Finland. Between those jobs, she worked as a secretary to a nudie film producer, an Avis Rent-A-Car employee, a cocktail waitress, a fashion model and a receptionist for the home offices of Burger King, all in Miami, Fla. Later, she managed a bed-and-breakfast in Northern California, and eventually became a massage therapist, a profession which she practiced until her death.

In 1996, Carr, already an AVN Hall of Famer, was inducted into the Legends of Erotica Hall of Fame; the XRCO Hall of Fame in 1999; and she received a Lifetime Achievement Award from Free Speech Coalition in 2001. She also received an honorary Doctor of the Arts degree from the Institute for the Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in 2007.

"She was just a wonderful woman," recalled director Wesley Emerson. "She started late in the industry, and I interviewed her about a month ago because several of her films are about to be rereleased in France—Coed Fever, Inside Desiree Cousteau and Talk Dirty To Me—and they wanted some commentaries from different people. I also talked to her about how she got started in the eight-millimeter business. She was one of the big stars of the Swedish Erotica series, and she worked with practically everybody. We talked about how she got started and all the things she did in the industry. She was talking about that film she did about older couples having sex [Ageless Desire, 1998]. I had worked with her many years ago on a film I don't remember the name of; it was one of those one-day wonders that you shot in 35mm in those days, and she was great, she was just an amazing person. She was always there on time, always ready with her lines, and I thought she was just a wonderful person."

"I heard on the grapevine about a hot new 'older' woman in the biz and was soon in her apartment interviewing her," remembered photographer Paul Johnson. "Her name was Judy Carr, later to become Juliet Anderson. We did a great shoot in a hot tub and patio that became the Connoisseur Series mag The First Time. [Juliet] was my sexy assistant the last few years I worked in the biz. Juliet had a great eye and after I taught her to use a Hasselblad she did great work when I was modeling POVs or fill-ins. I joked with Juliet that she could learn to use a Hasselblad but never could learn to flick a Bic. When Juliet and I worked together we would say that we will always be friends, seems to be true, we had breakfast together 3 weeks before her death."

"Juliet was a great assistant," he continued. "She had a great eye for dressing the set, did make-up when needed, and could crack the whip to keep the rest of us moving. And sometimes when a male was having trouble keeping it up, Juliet would lend a hand or whatever it took. Away from the biz I probably spent more time with her than anyone else."

"She was very health-conscious," Emerson noted. "When I saw her last month, her body was still pretty doggone toned and healthy."

"She was doing an essential kind of massage," said another acquaintance. "She had an amazing touch with her fingers; it would melt you. If she would just run her nails down your arm, it felt great."

"Her mom is still alive, and she spent Thanksgiving and Christmas with her mom and her family," Fong noted.

"Juliet and I talked, just in passing, about what she would want done if she died," Fong said. "She said she wanted to be cremated, and I've talked to her family a little bit, and we talked about donations to the Humane Society in lieu of flowers or any of that."

Check back to this site for information about any planned memorial services when they are announced.

A gallery of Juliet Anderson photos can be found here.

 I'm sure that Nina will have plenty more to say about Juliet's passing soon enough. Watch her journal and forum for details.

Rest in peace, Aunt Peg....you've earned it.

New Year, And Some Minor Changes to This Blog

I know that it has been quiet here for the holidays, so I have taken advantage of the down time to make some adjustments to this blog.

First off....due to the late run of spamming and drive-by trolling we have endured, I am now officially putting all comments on moderation (save for the usual posts by our founding contributors, such as Ernest, Ren Ev, IACB, or any other pro-porn/anti-censorship activist). Myself, Ren, Ernest, or IACB will now have the authority to reject any comment that we find to be offensive, trolling, or otherwise insulting to the purpose of this blog in defending sexual expression and those who purvey and produce such. Those who want to engage in meaningful debate and discussion, of course, are always welcome, but if you are only here to pick fights or to run the usual smack, then you will be banished pretty quick.

The second notice is that we are now inviting anyone who is directly involved in the porn industry -- whether it be as a performer, producer, webmaster, or otherwise, to become a contributor to this blog. This is not to solicit gossip or to promote spamming, but simply to allow those who have been mostly left out of the debate on porn and free expression to have a free and protected space to speak their mind. If you are really good enough, we will make you a fulltime contributor with all the powers therein.

Finally, on a personal blogging update: I have unfortunately been forced to move my SmackDog Chronicles blog to a new webhost due to my old domain being phished too many times...which resulted in my old webhosting company permanently suspending my domain. I have saved my old posts from that location and will be transferring all of them (including the Nina Hartley Shmate interview series) to the new blog as time permits...but it will take some time to do so given my work schedule. In the meantiime, here's the new adresss for the SmackChron:

http://redgarterclub.com/SDChronBlog2dot8/index.php


Hopefully 2010 will be a bit more productive with less drama for everyone.


ADDEDUM: I failed to note that Ren Ev has gracefully decided to share her formerly exclusive moderator/owner powers, and have granted me full moderator rights and privileges and responsibilities. Since she was the one who originated the idea and the spirit of this blog to begin with, all of us are grateful and thankful for her efforts, her activism, and her being such a determined misantrope and a freedom fighter.

"Condomgate" Update: Common Sense 2, Anti-Porn League 0

Well, Michael Weinstein's attempt to forum-shop his way to imposing mandatory condom usage on the LA porn industry didn't work out as well as he planned. Smacked down in Alameda, he tried to get revenge in the LA court system..and got whupped on even worse.

The story from XBIZ.com:

L.A. Judge Rejects Mandatory Condoms on Porn Sets

 
LOS ANGELES — A Los Angeles Superior Court judge on Tuesday rejected the AIDS Healthcare Foundation’s request calling for mandatory use of condoms on porn sets.

In his decision, Judge David Yaffe said the county has broad discretion in how it oversees public health and dismissed a petition seeking a court order to compel health officials to require condom use on porn sets or take other reasonable steps to stem the spread of disease.

AHF filed suit in July, just weeks after a performer known as Patient Zero tested positive for HIV and county health officials released data that showed 18 HIV cases and more than 3,700 cases of chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis had been reported since 2004 by the AIM Healthcare Foundation.

Last week, AHF delivered a petition to the state Occupational Safety and Health Standards Board, asking for a change in regulations over bloodborne pathogens. The petition seeks to require condom use on the porn set.

But in a "preemptive move," the adult film industry's Free Speech Coalition published a draft of its own bloodborne pathogen plan. The FSC’s plan covers worker safety and addresses numerous practices over everything from controlling waste to housekeeping to the cleaning of sex toys. It also addresses training, as well as pre- and post-scene evaluation, and makes examination recommendations for new-to-the-industry performers.

Brian Chase, the AHF’s attorney, told XBIZ while the organization is disappointed with Yaffe’s ruling, the group plans on appealing his decision.

“At the end of the day, this is a new issue for the courts,” Chase said. “The court in the ruling said that Public Health has the discretion to do something about the possible spread of bloodborne pathogens or they could do nothing at all.

“Our contention is that Public Health does have an obligation and that they can’t just sit on their hand for 10 years and do nothing about it.”

Chase noted that AHF will file its appeal 60 days after the final ruling is handed down by Yaffe.

 Now, this isn't going to deter Weinstein one bit, since in addition to the appeal, AHF is also appealing to Cal-OSHA to attempt to strong-arm the condom-only rules through through the regulatory process...but with these court rulings, I'm guessing that that will probably come up short, too.

But...how about the FSC actually getting aggressive and proactive for a change and promoting their own policies for protecting performers?? Better late than never, I suppose..but welcome.

California Anti-Porn Cabal Gathers to Plot Counter-Attack

After receiving a well-deserved ass-kicking from Alameda Superior Court Judge Winifred Smith for their ill-starred attempt to bully AIM into giving up its confidential client records by subpoena, Cal-OSHA's anti-porn warriors gathered with their small but noisy claque of supporters, including such drearily usual suspects from AHF and L.A. County Health in semi-seclusion at UCLA on Friday to strategize their next moves in the ongoing attempt to regulate the porn industry out of existence in this state. Though they denied admission to anyone from AIM, FSC, industry journalists and/or any actively working performers, they did duck their heads out long enough to fire off a few shots at those who they see as obstructing their noble mission to save us from ourselves.

I'll have something to say about this ... you can bet on it ... but first please give a read to Mark Kearnes excellent account from AVN Onlline:

http://business.avn.com/articles/36918.html

Love that part about "raising money to keep performers unsafe." Nice try, but until all of you crusaders can explain what you were doing to help during the past ten years when we were, in fact, keeping performers safe, maybe you should STFU.

While farm workers in The Central Valley continue to die in the fields of pesticide exposure and Los Angeles struggles to come up with the funds neeeded to re-open its largest public hospital, and prove itself competent to the federal courts to do so, these self-appointed monitors of civic morality persist in wasting the taxpayers' money and endangering existing safeguards that have protected performers far more effectively than workers in numerous other industries their agencies supervise in pursuit of an increasingly transparent personal vendetta.

Clearly, the lives and health of porn performers mean far less to these people than demonstrating the ability to impose their will on anyone who dares oppose them. Noble posturing aside, this is about the exercise of raw political power toward personal objectives. It's despicable in its entirety and it will ultimately fail, though at what cost to the welfare of performers and the rights of this community remains to be seen.

When government officials meet in secret to decide the fate of others, the results rarely serve the common good.

RIP: David Aaron Clark

Via BlueBlood comes the news that innovative porn director, erotica writer, and all-around creative personality David Aaron Clark passed yesterday at age 49. Amelia G memorializes him here.