Tuesday, August 7, 2007

Anti-porn mothers and teenage sons

xposted from my blog

The infamous Heart of womensspace has been getting hacked and harrassed in comments and other such. Her website's message board has been shut down by hackers, purportedly for the following post (not sure who it's by, but I seem to remember something almost identical posted at Biting Beaver's, so I suspect it's her):

I have three sons, ages 16, 15, and 12. I was also in an abusive marriage for ten years in which my 15 year old was a frequent target of my x husband. These boys had a rough time of it, as did we all.

After I left my husband my children acted out for a short time, we all spoke of feeling relief and feeling safe yet there were still some rough spots as I got the hang of trying to do it alone.

Several years ago my accountability program found that the computer had been accessing pornography. Turns out it was my middle son. To date he has been 'caught' accessing pornography many times since then. He was 13 I think when this started.

I banned him from the computer, but after a few months I would allow him to be on it for short periods of time. Each and every single time my son would access pornography within days (and sometimes hours) of being allowed back online. He was aware that he would be caught because the computers are monitored but he chose to do it anyway.

Most recently my youngest son allowed my middle son to play with his PSP. Brandon (the middle child) used it to immediately access pornography online. The child is now banned from computers, video games and so forth. I've talked until I'm blue in the face, I've grown angry and yelled, I've cried when I was alone and when I was in front of him. I've had him read Dworkin, my site, and other places (namely OAG's site) and I still can't unseat this problem. He can recite feminist literature all day long, he can understand the tenets, the ideas behind it, how it links together but he will not allow this knowledge to stand in the way of his porn use.

I don't think I'm looking for advice (I've tried everything I could think of so far) but more a place to simply be sad. I can clearly see why he's looking at pornography, I've figured all that out readily enough, but I can't seem to make it stop.

I know, that as soon as my child leaves my home and moves into his own place that he will be looking at porn immediately. I know that I am raising a problem for women. I know that this child will one day grow and will fully absorb the messages that porn sends to men. I know that my child masturbates to degradation of my people (when I use that phrase I mean womyn) and that with every orgasm he will further solidify his own hatred of and superiority over, women.

I know that there will likely come a day where my son coerces a young woman into sex (rape) and there isn't a damned thing I can do about it. I look into the eyes of my son and they still sparkle like they did when he was a baby, but he's not a baby anymore, he's growing into a man and that man will have trained himself to degrade women before he leaves my home.

As a radical feminist who puts women first I cannot begin to determine what I should do with regards to this issue. My heart breaks because there is nothing I can do to protect the womyn he will come into contact with.

I have three boys. One of them is lost to me and as a mother and a radical womyn this breaks my heart in a way I can scarcely express. I don't know if it says something terrible about me, but you know what haunts me late at night? More than anything else? I know, in my heart of hearts that, knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again I would have had that abortion.

I also find myself blaming myself over and over again, even though that radical womyn inside of me stands up and yells that I'm placing blame in the wrong place. I'm not sure what I intended to say with this message. I began writing it this morning and put it away again and finally decided to finish it this evening. I think that maybe I just wanted to share, I keep trying with Brandon and I keep failing. He simply doesn't care. When he wants to jerk off, everything goes right out the window.
Nothing ever justifies hacking, "invasions," threatening blog comments. They are never called for, never wise, never acceptable.

But there is something really wrong with some of these women, if they think that forcing their sons to repeat Dworkin's theory will stop them from using porn. If they fear their sons turning into rapists and cannot allow them to make their own decisions about their bodies, their fantasies, and what they do when they masturbate.

I have no idea whether this boy is using porn guiltily, convinced that his mom's radical theory is right and that his penis is an uncontrollable force. I hope (and suspect) that he realizes she's out of touch with reality and is using this porn in part to rebel.

But I've dealt with enough hearing that my sexuality is crazy, violent, destructive to know that even when you don't believe it, hearing people say it gets into your mind and your soul and makes you feel sick inside. And you hate yourself for desiring.

I know this particular person and clique don't represent feminism and aren't even worth the time of day. But I think we need to be aware of what some of our theory lends itself to. I think the sane, thoughtful anti-porners need to wrestle with this, struggle with it, understand why the people on the other side fear inducing sexual shame.

And I think we need to realize that, as much as we love to remind the ignorant that feminism isn't about hatred of, mistrust of, or violence toward men -- sometimes those of us who are prone to it can use the theory to look at men, or men's sexuality, or men's penises, as something worthy only of derision and fear.

90 comments:

  1. "But I've dealt with enough hearing that my sexuality is crazy, violent, destructive to know that even when you don't believe it, hearing people say it gets into your mind and your soul and makes you feel sick inside. And you hate yourself for desiring."

    FTW.

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  2. Hey, Heart and Beeb...

    You do know that there are these things called "filters", do you?? You do know that you can easily use those filters to block off any material that you might find objectionable to your kids, do you??

    Rather than curse your kids and shut them from the outside world and blame everyone else for your own myopia about sex, why not try actually being a freakin' parent for once, and actually talking to your kids about the reality of sexual feelings and desires, and how to cope with them in a safe and responsible and respectful way??

    Oh, but I forgot....that's a MALE, patriarchial idea that is totally incompatible with twoo radicalfeminism...ahhh, never mind.


    Anthony

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  3. Nothing ever justifies hacking...but...

    [Translation]I know that aligning myself with the hackers will make me look bad so I'll phrase my agreement with the hackers' motives a bit differently to make me look good.

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  4. My opinion of BB's disgusting treatment of her son has nothing to do with my opinion of the hackers.

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  5. Two different issues, Bella, and you know it.

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  6. First time visitor here. Sorry for the anonymous post, but I can't remember my google id.

    This poor woman is unhinged and no amount of feminist theory is going to change that.

    This kid is going to grow up with women issues because his mother is a controlling, infantilizing, smothering headcase who seems to think she's entitled to approve her kid's masturbation fantasies along with setting curfews and making sure he does his homework.

    I wanna say, "Lady! Get outta your kid's crotch!"

    I wouldn't be surprised if this kid actually enjoyed accessing porn more than looking at it, because he knows it drives his mother nuts - which, hello? Last time I checked, is an adolescents' fulltime job - and it's a short drive with this "I wish I had had an abortion instead of this kid," nutjob.

    Why doesn't this idiot just buy install a filter for the computer and tell her kid that if he wants to look at porn, he's going to have to do it somewhere else til he has his own place and can make his own rules? Oh, because she's nuts...

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  7. oh for fuck's sake "bella." no one here is aligning with the miserable little shitstains who hack and out people. in fact, most of us have said in no uncertain terms in several places that we think they suck, they're dangerous, it's bad for all women even if we can't stand the woman in question currently under attack.

    Here, however, we are remarking on: yeah, that's a case of bad parenting, right there.

    Since it's out there.

    And no, it doesn't fucking excuse the hackers. Several of us are worried that in fact the combination of dear Beeb having posted the kid's name and the hackers' malevolent efforts may end up making things even -worse- for the kid. And yeah, it only takes one crazy person to show up on your doorstep, and I don't wish that on Beeb -either.-

    I'm not going to go fawning all over Heart or beeb personally to tell them how sorry I am that they're being (once again) tragically martyred, no. Or offer her money. She's/they've got other people to do that for her/them, neh?

    0What the fuck, when's the last time either of them or any of the people currently whinging about how the "yaypornies" are relishing this, never ever get harassed ourselves (of course, dear), hell, maybe even orchestrated this at this point--when's the last time any of them even so much as said "I'm sorry" whenever one of us had tsuris? There've been plenty of opportunities. Starting with, gee, maybe you could tell one of your -own- people that threatening and harassing other women isn't cool. but no, -crickets crickets-.

    Newsflash: bad things happen to good people. Bad things also happen to sucky people. I happen to think this represents one of the latter cases. And no, -I- do not think that the fact that they're sucky constitutes any sort of "they deserved it." But I'm not gonna go "oh the poor poor darlings, they're not sucky after all, all of a sudden we are now bonded in Sisterhood" -either.- Don't like it? Suck my tampon.

    signed,

    Had It.

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  8. "And no, -I- do not think that the fact that they're sucky constitutes any sort of "they deserved it." But I'm not gonna go "oh the poor poor darlings, they're not sucky after all, all of a sudden we are now bonded in Sisterhood" -either."

    Right on. I am not going to talk about how horrid the hackers are without also mentioning that the post they are reacting to is HORRIBLE.

    They were justifiably incensed by what they read -- that's horrendous parenting if not abuse. Their response, rather than thoughtful criticism or attempts to meaningfully reach the kid and help him out of a household in which Mom wishes he were dead, was vile and immature.

    Two wrongs don't make a right. But the second wrong is in fact be a response to a wrong.

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  9. "Why doesn't this idiot just buy install a filter for the computer and tell her kid that if he wants to look at porn, he's going to have to do it somewhere else til he has his own place and can make his own rules?"

    What she says she installed is "accountability" software, which seems to be a popular thing among anti-porn types, both religious and feminist. Its basically snitchware that allows you to access sites, but sends a list of what you've accessed to mommy or daddy. Because its really important that they know every damn detail of what you're looking at, presumably.

    Filters are an option, though a lot of teenagers are good at beating them, plus they filter out a lot of non-porn content.

    One of the best things to do vis-a-vis kids and computers, if you're concerned about these things, is to simply put the computer in a very public part of the house, which is an obvious disincentive, though that can only work when a parent or nosy sibling is at home.

    In any event, the way I read the story, the kid is regularly accessing porn fully knowing Mamma Beaver is going to find out. Its clearly an act of rebellion on his part, probably knowing all about how this is her big trigger.

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  10. well, and to clarify: I think -some- of the people who read it were incensed. Unfortunately, I do also think that the actual hackers are mostly amoral little fuckheels who aren't really "incensed" so much as "amused."

    That said, there are a lot of sane people reading this now, because of the hackjob and the resultant publicity, who don't sympathize with the hackers, are repulsed (as am I) by the treating peoples' actual lives like a video game, including outing and violent threats; but are also horrified by the post itself.

    and yeah, I imagine that at least some of the /b/stains responded on a gut level to "mom wishes her teenage son was aborted," seeing as how that's probably the demographic and all. I don't think that's -all- of what's going on--I'm sure they're all old enough and ugly enough to know better than to behave this way, and I'm well aware that they similarly target all sorts of "deserving" people, charmingly labelled faggots and bitches and (insert your racial epithet of choice) as well as any number of "authority" figures (some rightwing) and anyone who "challenges" them on a technical level (it's a game, see), and it all has fuckall to do with their wounded childhood (at least any more than any of the rest of us) -or- their Patriarch's International Conspiracy Card.

    they're entitled little brats with no empathy and a stunted sense of humor derived in equal parts from South Park, Andrew Dice Clay, and the sort of asshole who thinks tripping old ladies is superfun.

    but, at the same time: yeah. Mom says her kid should've been aborted. I'm not surprised that it caught the attention of a lot of teenage boys, you know? And no, it's not all about the pr0n.

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  11. Forcing a boy to read Andrea Dworkin is child abuse.

    This woman has so internalized man-hating propoganda that she is incapable of reasoned thought.

    It's really quite sad. My ex-wife who was sexually abused by her step father made me swear off porn and read Dworkin.

    She continued the cycle by mentally abusing me for finding joy is sex.

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  12. I don't think attempting to "make" a loved one read -anything,- much less with the intention of converting them to your Truth, is a really swell idea, frankly. but yeah, it does have overtones of religious abuse as well as sexual abuse.

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  13. Porn is here & has been with us for years; take a look at some Greek/Roman/Indian frescos & accept it. As Humans we`re geared to get turned on by images of sex. ALL teenagers masturbate, & you can bet they enjoy it. Sure some of it is exploitative, but there are women who have found that they can make more in a month doing porn than they can flipping burgers - and which is more fun?

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  14. Nothing ever justifies hacking...but...

    [Translation]I know that aligning myself with the hackers will make me look bad so I'll phrase my agreement with the hackers' motives a bit differently to make me look good.


    um, no.

    here's the whole quote:

    Nothing ever justifies hacking, "invasions," threatening blog comments. They are never called for, never wise, never acceptable.

    But there is something really wrong with some of these women, if they think that forcing their sons to repeat Dworkin's theory will stop them from using porn.


    how I read that is "hacking is wrong, and is never justified for any reason, but I also feel it's important to point out that the mom-in-question's behavior is wrong as well."

    and I don't get any sense of "asking for it" - just that A is wrong, and B is also wrong.

    And I don't feel like Trinity is really saying B caused A.

    on the other hand, I did:

    http://feet2thefire.blogspot.com/2007/08/probably-more-or-less-last-post-about.html

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  15. I find the following two statments by the writer, well, scarey:

    1) "I have three boys. One of them is lost to me and" ... "if I had it to do over again I would have had that abortion."

    2) "I know that there will likely come a day where my son coerces a young woman into sex (rape)"

    I have to say that as a pro-choice male the idea that a woman would think that a person viewing porn is SO bad that they should have never been born... damn!

    As for #2, I didn't realize the "coersion" is rape. (not a joke) I thought ADULTS had free will. I thought if someone is DUMB enough to be conned into sex (or any other act) against their will... ::shrug:: I guess my point here is that I don't FEEL that strongly about her word choice. I FEEL that if someone makes a choice, it's their choice. I FEEL that rape is when a person is left without a choice. I could very well be wrong about this... just voicing.

    In other news:
    Just found the site. Thanks kindly for the forum. I hope I can bring something positive here.

    Peace,
    James Rose
    New York City

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  16. "I guess my point here is that I don't FEEL that strongly about her word choice. I FEEL that if someone makes a choice, it's their choice. I FEEL that rape is when a person is left without a choice."

    Coercion is one method by which people are "left without a choice," though.

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  17. For what it's worth, all of BitingBeaver's crazy stuff over the past two years are archived at http://encyclopediadramatica.com/BitingBeaver/

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  18. I wonder what the teenage minor son in question will think of his mother when he reads...

    Dworkin's demand that men give up their erections.

    ..or any other of her screeds against men.

    If the hacker in question were this self-same teenager, would we still be unsympathetic to the hacker?

    I am drained of all sympathy to Heart. As a result of her two prior relationships with African-American males, she declared that black men are AT LEAST as sexist as white males. And she endorsed Jenna Jameson's racist exclusion of black males as on-screen sex partners.

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  19. yeah, there was that whole White Women Are The Most Oppressedest Of All dwama a while back as well. somewhere in there she wrote something like "And this is why I don't date black men anymore." she deleted it and backpedalled--men in general, of course, she meant men--but, between that and the earlier I Am As One With Nicole Simpson and various other increasingly jawdropping fapperies, plus the way she hijacks the term "colonization" to mean "anything I don't like," well, let's just say that in general, but particularly among the radical women of color, many of whom used to respect her and link to her, she is becoming sort of the anti-Dale Carnegie.

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  20. All we seek, is the ability to tell the /b/oy that his femi-Nazi mommy wishes he were dead.

    If it were you, if your own mother were so twisted and fucked in the head that she can't stand the thought of you engaging in harmless, adolescent sexual fantasy, wouldn't you want to know? So that you could steer the fuck clear of that crazy bitch once you're out of the house?

    Feminism is all well and good. Hell, some of my IRL friends are feminists, independent women, blah blah blah. My fiancee could kick my ass any day of the week. But they're not as twisted and psycho as some of the people we've encountered in this siege.

    I thought I'd seen everything on teh intarwebs. Apparently, I was wrong. The Child-Free movement doesn't even come as close to the vehement hatred spewed by that woman towards her own son. No innocent human being deserves that. You don't have to love someone just because they popped out of you, but you sure as hell have no right to hate them, you know?

    Speaking for myself, as part of a Legion of many, I have no quarrel with the rest of you.

    Just them.

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  21. okay, assuming this is serious for the moment: what exactly do you think is going to happen if/when you find the kid?

    "Hey, kid, your Mom wishes you'd been aborted. Sorry, dude. LULZ!"

    1) What makes you think he doesn't already know? Hasn't had it already screamed in his face?

    2) And this helps who, how?

    Serious questions, for once. Just this once.

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  22. The other part is--yeah, her attitude is fucked for several reasons (although people do vent and have Unthinkable thoughts about their own offspring from time to time, and had this remained in private space, it might have gone the way of many such moments; we've all got our shit, as you probably know),

    but, you read the thing in context. The father was an abusive fuckstain as well. Worse, apparently: he DID hit, he DID sexually abuse, he DID shame the boy verbally and emotionally. He's not an option. She's just kicked the last loser of a boyfriend out. She's all he's got. Abusive or not, she pays the bills, keeps a roof over his head. And, she's still his mother. D'you think he wants to go see total strangers calling her a fucking whore who loves to be raped? Would you want that kind of shit splashed all over the Internets about your parents? Even if you did have your own beef with them, is it really the same when total strangers are going to town on your personal troubles like it's a huge old joke?

    He's thirteen. He probably could use support and some real friends, yeah. Call me a cynic, but I don't think this is the best way to go about it. If you really want to help.

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  23. I mean, I can see it, this part of it anyway (we are putting aside, for the moment, the various DoS floods and the various mice sending various women lovely comments about how they'd like to rape them and stick knives into their orifices and so on, because that's -always- helpful and really makes one's case for Outrage at someone -else's- hatefulness): like the "Free Katie" business with Tom Cruise, let's say. Funny, right? Funny and sad, sort of mean it but at the same time: total strangers, it's just words and images on the screen. But, the -idea- of it.

    But here's the thing: whatever you think of celebrity hounding, these people are not celebrities. They're just folks, and if you contribute to a situation where their personal information--name, address--gets splashed all over the place, chances are, well, at minimum, nothing good's going to come of it. Even if -you- have only the best of intentions. Once it's out there, it's out there. Yeah?

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  24. What belle said.

    If you're really trying to help -- good on ya.

    If you're in it for lulz and nothing more, I wonder just what sort of positive effect you hope to have on this situation in the long term.

    I'm not going to assume lulz are all any of you are looking for, but I do hope you understand the difference between digging up dirt and making a difference.

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  25. i did not know that about Jenna Jameson, btw. lovely.

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  26. Sheldon –

    I've read about Jenna Jameson and her apparent exclusion of black men. (She has done at least one scene with a black woman, however.) I know that she's never done such a scene, but is that from a stated policy of hers not to do "interracial"? Has she acually been offered scenes like this and turned them down?

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  27. As for "looking for Brandon", what BD and Trinity said.

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  28. Brandon has every right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. His mother is denying him what our fore-fathers died for. Women did not fight that war. Remember that? None of you died for that. You caused secular outrage that enabled you to vote. None of you have ever died for the freedoms that you would deny us as men.

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  29. It sounds like this woman refuses to take personal responsibility for her own poor choices with men, and instead is punishing her sons for them.

    She, a self proclaimed "radical feminist", choose to date and marry an abusive douchebag, to have 3 kids with him and stay with him for a decade.

    Incidentally, it's interesting a "radical feminist" would be with a man like that (Catherine McKinnon had a similar scumbag for a husband).

    Perhaps their so called "radical feminism" is nothing more than resigning themselves to sexism, and turning their backs on the idea that there ever will be a time when men aren't sexist.

    To someone with that kind of thought process, it would be logical for them to be drawn to abusive men, who, in their minds are "real men", as opposed to men who support women's rights (who can't be real men, because, according to the Dworkinists, all men are sexist).

    In any case, this woman is now divorced, and she's horrified that her teenaged sons have a healthy interest in women's bodies.

    Of course, ALMOST ALL healthy teens, boys and girls alike, are interested in sex.

    And teens who, for whatever reason, can't get a partner look at the next best thing - porn.

    But this lady can't respect that and instead is focused on torturing her sons and making them hate a very beautiful and personal thing about themselves.

    If one of her boys DOES become a rapist (God forbid) I wouldn't blame the internet porn - I'd blame THE MOTHER for making them hate their sexuality and think it's bad.

    Some people just should NOT have kids!!!!!

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  30. Actually Spider, women often fought in wars disguised as men (since they weren't allowed to fight as women). Most of the American accounts we have are from the American Civil War. Because you see, by that time most people knew how to read and post was fairly reliable so we have a few diaries and letters. The wars after that started to have more in depth physical exams so few, if any, women were able to pretend to be men.
    And of course, you also have the women who passed information along, acted as spies, who were doctors, took over jobs, kept up the farms, etc.
    All those important things that you forget if you are a little child who is in love with the idea of glory.

    I don't like Heart. I hate her views on trans*folk and I think she has a lot of unexamined privilege (white, cis*, and heterosexual to name a few). I actually don't care much about the DOS attacks or the spamming of her boards; that is the internet after all. I don't like the threats.
    I'm of two minds about trying to find BB's son; if someone wants to find him and call him to tell him he isn't a rapist, that his mom and dad's problems are not his fault, etc. I would be absolutely fine with anonymous searching for him. But if you plan on just telling him his mom's a dirty ho who wants to kill him...that is wrong.

    PS: Spamming a single link? So completely and totally FAIL.
    Maybe I'm just oldschool, but does anyone use goatse or tubgirl anymore? They were much more amusing than porn or a slap.

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  31. I didn't realize until I followed the links that this crazy nutcase was the "Biting Beaver"!

    I first came across her crazy blog a few months ago and I was appaled - above all, what struck me was why did a woman who hates men so much have a husband and three sons???

    That woman is a mental case - I feel sorry for her sons (they WILL be spending tens of thousands of dollars on therapy in a few years)

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  32. yeah, I often wondered about that myself--well, not the sons, obviously, she'd already had them with the abusive ex-husband, but (the aptly nymed) Dim Undercellar (who btw wasn't her husband, and she's since kicked him to the curb, no doubt for good reasons, although--well, anyway).

    It is sad, the whole thing.

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  33. --just for narrative's sake, the radical feminism came FROM the experience with the abusive exhusband, she wasn't one at the time. Sort of in the same way that people convert to various religions, I expect, and for similar or at least parallel reasons.

    but yeah, her particular weird strain of so-called radical feminism--and while the "manhating" thing really is often a strawpersyn, even with a lot of radicals, in her case it was and is apropos, I would say--always seemed to go ill with the weird relationship she had with Dim.

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  34. Perhaps their so called "radical feminism" is nothing more than resigning themselves to sexism, and turning their backs on the idea that there ever will be a time when men aren't sexist.


    well, there's something to that, I would say.

    The radical feminists I like and respect are genuinely working for (what i consider to be) positive change; these people, well, again, it's a kind of fundamentalism. Not coincidentally a number of them do seem to come from more conventional fundamentalist backgrounds--Heart did, Dim did (I'm fairly sure), I know at least some of the others I've run across did. The dogma changes but the black and white mentality stays the same; as does, yep, a lot of the de facto attitudes toward sexuality (even if the specifics vary somewhat, yes). Not to mention childrearing-- as a number of feminists have mentioned, this is very much a part of the (using the term in context) Patriarchy: this idea that kids are their parents' property, that socialization comes from shaming and punishment, and most of all that sexuality is something that people could and should just -control-, right down to their very fantasies (they both wrote about this, 'Please Fantasize Responsibly")--and which, isn't that awfully reminiscent of "I have sinned in my heart?"

    I don't get it, I really don't. Me, I come from a guilt background more than a shame one. Not, "you are Wrong at the core and must constantly be vigilant about purifying yourself, in order to avoid Doom." More, "you fucked up. In a way that actually and concretely affects other people. Go fix it."

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  35. Quoting IACB:

    Sheldon –

    I've read about Jenna Jameson and her apparent exclusion of black men. (She has done at least one scene with a black woman, however.) I know that she's never done such a scene, but is that from a stated policy of hers not to do "interracial"? Has she actually been offered scenes like this and turned them down?


    I should note that this has been a pet peeve of Sheldon's about Jenna Jameson; the fact that she personally does not do Black men has been a bit of a personal burr up his butt for a while.

    It's not so much an issue with me, since I'm not as willing to dismiss anyone who may not (for whatever reason) do interracial scenes with Black men as inherently racist. It doesn't make Jenna as progressive as, say, Nina Hartley, but it doesn't make her a White supremacist, either.


    As for Beeb and her apparant hatred of her son: well, how else do you expect being raised on fundamentalist extreme radicalfeminist, male-baiting ideology would turn out?? I really do feel for the kid, not just because he will be so burdened with self-guilt and loathing for himself (if not outright self-hate); but there is the chance that he just may deflect a lot of that hatred towards women who attract his sexual desires. In short, Beeb by her hatred towards her own son may be breeding the very same woman hatred that she claims to want to prevent....another example of "blowback".

    On the other hand, though, I'd rather not support the current vandalism ongoing at some feminist blogs in revenge; since ratching up the weaponry in the classic "eye for an eye" reaction only makes things worse for everybody...and ultimately takes out innocent victims.


    Anthony

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  36. On the other hand, though, I'd rather not support the current vandalism ongoing at some feminist blogs in revenge... [...]

    Obviously, I meant to say "towards", rather than "at"; I don't wish to imply in any way that the blogs that are targeted are encouraging the attacks and hacks on them.

    No matter how bad Beeb or Heart are, there is a limit of common decency....and these attacks crossed that line a long time ago.


    Anthony

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  37. spam deleted :)

    Bella: I am, on occasion, a woman of few words and very little in the way of civil behavior.

    Now is one such time.

    Fuck off.

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  38. On the other hand, though, I'd rather not support the current vandalism ongoing at some feminist blogs in revenge; since ratching up the weaponry in the classic "eye for an eye" reaction only makes things worse for everybody...and ultimately takes out innocent victims.


    That seems to be the bottom line here.

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  39. In one of his few incisive interviews, Howard Stern confronted Jenna Jameson on her no-black-male clause, and she hemmed and hawed on it, just like a typical Democratic presidential candidate on the issue of, say, gay marriage.

    Once, she told him she had some issues with it, but did not elaborate. Another time, she mentioned that she and NBA star Dennis Rodman held hands and such.

    Jenna became a star with Wicked at a time when it was company policy to exclude white female / black male couplings from their 35mm film product distributed on adult and hotel cable systems. In the 90s, that was also Vivid and VCA policy as well. Lexington Steele has talked about how he was "replaced" by a white actor by none other than VCA director Veronica Hart.

    None of these aforementioned matters are covered in her supposedly tell-all autobiography, How to Make Love Like a Porn Star.

    My peeve isn't about Jenna per se but performers who behave as if their agent is Jim Crow.

    Because of my bitching and more importantly, the complaints of dozens (if not hundreds) of porn fans on popular internet forums like Adult DVD Empire, at the Las Vegas conventions, as well as the purchase of VCA by Larry Flynt, these policies no longer exist at the major companies. [Note: Her company, Club Jenna, is not a major player, and she is the only known holdout to interracial scenes.]

    It's an important story about how the porn industry is not immune to progressive change from within and that its fans have a conscience, contrary to anti-porn propaganda.

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  40. Women fighting in the American Revolutionary War: False, until proven otherwise. Wikipedia is not a factual source.

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  41. I did not know that Jenna Jameson was so damned racist!

    That she personally refuses to perform with a Black man - and her company won't hire Black men to perform with White women.

    That is disgusting!!!

    I definitely plan to spread the word about Jameson's racism - and to encourage folks to boycott Jenna Jameson and her company until she apologizes for her past racism and reverses her company's racist policies going forward.

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  42. Spider, I didn't say the US Revolutionary War. As far as I know, information on women pretending to be men to fight in it is scarce. I was talking about the Civil War as that is where we have actual diaries and letters and accounts of women fighting. And I didn't get that from Wiki, though if you look it may have some decent source (I haven't looked at the wiki though). I was going off of the books and collection of letters (Sarah Rosetta Wakeman's) I wrote a report on back in high school. I did a six page report back in my junior year of high school on women soldiers.
    It's been a few years, but from what I remember, there were women soldiers in the rev. war, but information on them is scarce for he reasons I mentioned in my other comment.
    Hmmm... Looking at the wiki, there are several books about the roles of women during the Revolutionary War. I'm sure you can get them at the library.
    A quick google search gives some names to women who fought:Deborah Samson, Rachel and Grace Martin, and Margaret Corbin.
    Historical records confirm that 80 women fought in the Civil War; some estimate that there were over 400 women fighting on both sides.

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  43. The Legion is kind of like a firehose with an unending supply of human shit attached to it. It's pure, unrestrained id. What's the saying they use? "None of us is as cruel as all of us."

    Interesting factoid: in measures of zealotry--that is, to what degree a single ideology informs one's outlook on life--feminism comes in (a distant) second behind religious fundamentalism. (See Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians, p. 126.) This doesn't discredit anything, of course, but it does point out that the "everything looks like a nail" problem may very well have been a factor.

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  44. grendelkhan said:

    "What's the saying they use? None of us is as cruel as all of us."

    That sounds like a more pithy version of Nietzsche's aphorism:

    "Madness is something rare in individuals – but in groups, parties, peoples, ages it is the rule."

    Crowd psychology, in a nutshell.

    "Interesting factoid: in measures of zealotry--that is, to what degree a single ideology informs one's outlook on life--feminism comes in (a distant) second behind religious fundamentalism. (See Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians, p. 126.)"

    Its an interesting study (and can be seen here), though I have my doubts about how scientifically valid it is.

    What's problematic about the specific statement above is that its comparing religious fundamentalists with feminists in general. All religions and ideologies, including feminism, have their more pragmatic, less ideological folks, and they have their fundamentalists, who are typically more authoritarian by far. Feminism is no exception. And I think if you were looking at the hard core of radical feminism, you'd probably find their levels of personal authoritarianism (which I'm unsure as to how you'd measure) are comparable with that of religious fundamentalists.

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  45. their levels of personal authoritarianism (which I'm unsure as to how you'd measure)

    oo, oo! a construct! exactly the sort of thing I've been doing as exercises for That Class.

    actually though it's already been done; too lazy to look it up right now, but try Adorno or "F-Scale," for a start.

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  46. You caused secular outrage that enabled you to vote.

    actually, a Republican congress enabled us to vote. and if you look into the history of women's suffrage, you'll find a whole lot of dirty politics under the lace-and-bustle secular outrage you cite.

    None of you have ever died for the freedoms that you would deny us as men.

    well, duh - how would we be here to internet-fight with if we were dead, darlin'?

    and what about WACs, WAVES, Army nurses at field hospitals, guerrilla fighters in Vietnam?

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  47. draken, I did. That was the basis of my argument and my freedoms. Congratulations on earning your cum-dumpster merit badge.

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  48. http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/ images/d/d0/Biting_beaver_fursona.gif

    That shows a healthy attitude towards men, no?

    Too bad they havn't made a special condom yet that lets female chauvinists only have girls. Bitingbeaver must have kicked herself for bringing another future rapist in the world when she realized the baby was male.

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  49. I think the "none of us is as cruel as all of us" is a takeoff on the demotivator poster reading "none of us is as dumb as all of us" or something like that.

    belledame222, the F-scale was mentioned in The Authoritarians; Altemeyer's research delved very much into measuring one's likelihood to engage in authoritarian aggression, authoritarian submission and conformity, which tend to group well together. Follow iamcuriousblue's link.

    (Also, it didn't just compare feminists to fundies; religious types who are zealous about their religion are fundamentalist kind of by definition, and I elided the groups; Altemeyer did not do this.)

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  50. If you look, I then went into the Revolutionary War.
    "A quick google search gives some names to women who fought [in the Rev. War]: Deborah Samson, Rachel and Grace Martin, and Margaret Corbin."
    As I said, there are a few books specifically about women soldiers referenced on the wiki page. I'm sure you could go to the library and find at least one (or get them through inter-library loans or amazon).
    And isn't "cum-dumpster" used for women? I'm quite male thank you very much.

    By the way, I'm not sure you would have the freedom to look at porn (or whatever) if the Union hadn't won. After all, who knows what would have happened if the US had been two separate countries for events such as WWII or the Great Depression. Maybe Mexico would have conquered us.
    Hmmm... I really must find a list of good alternet history books somewhere...

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  51. Read up:

    http://www.wikichan.org/index.php/7chan

    People have indeed bitched about invasions before and have gotten results by taking things to the higher-ups.

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  52. drakyn:

    Cum-dumpster is unisex. Cum can get caught up in the orifices of everybody: man, women, and everything in between.

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  53. Blah blah blah. Make me a sandwhich.

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  54. Holy shit, this is STILL going on?

    Haha, those silly feminazi dykes don't know when to quit.

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  55. Yeah, it's pretty pathetic when you consider the blog in question is already down, thank god. One less piece of garbage on the internet.

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  56. Sorry Spider, you'll have to make your own. I haven't found a way to stabilize wormholes enough to use them for emailing solid objects yet.

    But thanks for telling me I won. History and learning are quite fun, aren't they.

    Btw Spider, have you enlisted yet? I haven't (it's illegal for me to since I refuse to not Tell), but my grandfather did as have several of my relatives and friends.

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  57. Hey. BitingBeaver: way to be a fucktard. Jesus Christ, slit your wrists and give us all a break, and let your kids grow up with a chance of being normal.

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  58. You, madam, are a fucktard. Kill yourself.

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  59. Go tell your mother she wants you, kids.

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  60. ARS: Poof, you're a sandwich. A vast improvement in all respects, I think we all agree.

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  61. "ARS: Poof, you're a sandwich. A vast improvement in all respects, I think we all agree."

    LULZ!

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  62. I feel so sorry for her kids :(
    It proves she is a 100% crazy.
    Enough said.

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  67. ...as a female anonymous (rule 37 what?), i still have to say: good fucking god, what a crazy feminazi.

    there are plenty of anonymous in it for the lulz. and oh, what lulz are had! but come on, we didn't even have to WORK for that. the entire post she made was on EPIC FAIL. not to mention traumatic, horrifying, and a good indication of the kind of child abuse she's put brandon through. that kid needs to have some ammo to call the cps on his damn mom with. if she's having filicidal thoughts at any point in time, she at the very least needs to be put in some kind of therapy to work things out. do you think that, with this kind of radical belief system and self-righteousness that she'd "degrade" herself to attending therapy on a regular basis? hell no. not for this. she won't be pulled quietly into any setting that might reverse her gender beliefs. if it takes the government yanking her into these kinds of sessions and getting her the emotional help she needs to become stable once moar, if at all possible, it needs to happen NAO.

    that kind of verbal abuse (insinuating he'll become a rapist one day, he's degrading women, he's terrible, etc.) is going to do one of several things: he'll swear off women (not likely, since he's still pr0ning it up), he'll believe her and raep because he's been told so long he'd actually do so, or he'll be socially inept as he continues through junior high and high school, finally growing into an awkward, incapable adult. good for him for rebelling! even if just to piss her off, it's still a sign that he's fighting her influence and still has some of his wits about him.

    also, keep in mind ,Most recently my youngest son allowed my middle son to play with his PSP, this crazy bitch has MORE THAN ONE SON. three, from what i understand. these other two kids are probably fucked. one's older? god can only imagine what he's dealing with. or more importantly, where is he getting his fix of the other sex outside that house? his mom's so worried with brandon she's forgotten that her oldest is probably screwing girls already since he never got it out of his system when he was at home to porn. and the younger one? moar to follow in his brothers' footsteps.

    a good portion of the crap on that page of her "rape checklist" is bull. if it's consensual, it's NOT RAEP. YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. also, what the hell kind of mindstate does she live in with the idea: You cannot tell who is a rapist by the way they look. Rapists are your friends, your brothers, your fathers and you won't know it. how does she EXIST? does she fetal-position in the corner on busses or in crowded areas to protect herself from hidden rapists who aren't "wearing signs"? don't believe this shit either? http://encyclopediadramatica.com/BitingBeaver/RapeChecklist WTF. kthx.

    also, just a note to all of you i've read do this on this page. WHAT is with the replacing letters of common words with "Y"? womyn? NO. WOMAN WOMAN WOMAN. at least moar, tl;dr, nao are established slang on the mighty internet hate machine. is this some crazy feminazi slang i'm unfamiliar with? if so, okay; if you're just doing it like how people change fairy to faerie, FAIL.

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  68. Anony:

    I may be wasting my time, but you seem a particularly reasonable snippet of the legion. Thus:

    ...yes, in fact, rapists can be anyone. (Date rape and rape that is domestic violence is, for example, far more common than stranger rape, despite most people believing this is not the case.) And yes, this does induce paranoia in a lot of people when they first realize it. I know when I took a self-defense class in which we were told that, I found myself having some very creepy dreams for a while.

    But yes, I do think you're right that BB is like a snake eating her own tail at this point. Everyone with a penis is someone to fear, even her own son if she doesn't have adequate control.

    And yes, I gather that that's what got the attention of the legion, and I do believe (unlike some others) that many of the individual Anonys are less interested in hating women than they are in rebelling against that notion that people, especially people experiencing sexual desire, can or should be controlled.

    As far as "womyn," that was coined in the '70s (the heyday of some very extreme radical feminism) with the idea that "woman" contains the word "man" in it. A lot of the feminist separatists of that time thought the best thing for them would be to totally distance themselves from men and men's world, so they decided to spell the word in a way that didn't read "man" (or "men" in the case of "women") in the middle.

    They couldn't quite agree on a spelling, so you'll see

    womyn (singular), womyn (plural)
    womon (sing), womyn (pl)
    womon (sing), wimmin (pl)

    etc. I also saw "wemoon" once. (Gag.)

    You'll also see this mocked by quite a few people... including other feminists.

    Personally I never liked them. The whole "oh no, the word 'men' is in there" ignores the actual etymology of the word. And they look like they'd be pronounced differently than "woman" and "women" anyway. I'm not going to walk in any rooms and announce that I'm a wo-MON! ;)

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  69. yeah, a lot of us have been watching the trainwreck that is the Beeb with a sort of incredulously amused horror for a while now. and yes, the other two kids are in the same boat: there was an awful post she'd written some time ago about how one of the others was being bullied at school but blamed himself for it, so she took him out and homeschooled from then on out.

    but, well, what everyone else said including me, too lazy to go through the whole spiel again.

    When she did the fundraising thing for her abortion, I didn't say anything because, whatever I think about her personally, it was a good example of the kind of shit we can expect under the theocon's influence on public health (the E.C. over the counter thing). sort of in the same way as y'all seem to feel here: another case of someone's batshit insane ideology being used to control and hurt people who just want to live their damn lives. and, funnily enough, also having to do with sexuality.

    but the enemy of my enemy is sometimes also batshit, there's no question. and, she does seem to end up the center of dwamas rather frequently. I do think that bad shit happens to everyone, as I've said, it's not all "deserved," and I've said my piece wrt the real life harassment; at the same time, I do think that when a given individual has a -pattern- of being the epicenter of gigantic dwamas there may just be something going on with the individual in question that feeds that pattern, at least.

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  70. etc. I also saw "wemoon"


    lordie.

    maybe if we said it in Pig Latin. "omyn-way." that ought to really excise the patriarchy from it...

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  71. but yeah, anyway per womyn, the only people I know who use it seriously are that lot, the Heart/Margins brigade (even the more mainstream radical feminists, i.e. Twisty, poke fun at the moon-womb-yoni shit). when the rest of us use it, generally speaking, it's ironic.

    I've not seen this sort of retro shit in real life, btw; a lot of us were sort of incredulous that this weird little subset of fringey radical/cultural/etc. feminists were still in existence as if preserved in amber; but then, as you well know, no doubt, everything exists on the Internets.

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  72. "but yeah, anyway per womyn, the only people I know who use it seriously are that lot, the Heart/Margins brigade"

    a couple of radfems (actually really cool people who were actually interested in updating radical feminism to take into account varying oppressions and fight for everyone) on LJ use it non-ironically. I never thought it seemed in any way necessary, but it never really bugged me. eh, whatevs.

    Now the weepy "radfems" like Heart and Beeb, and the... well, not giving names right now, but... some others... yeah, it's irritating as fuck.

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  73. Well, it's like everything else: as long as the individual isn't a total asshole, what might be eyeball-claw-hammer inducing with some other fuckwit is merely a possibly even endearing quirk that may or may not annoy depending on what kind of humor one is in.

    oh, and also I swear I saw one of the Marginal use the term "gyns." as in, wimbon up, gyns, we shall weather this storm, you know.

    i have to admit "myn the harpoons" did make me snicker. although it really should be "myn thy hyrpyns."

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  74. even with the collective mindset of the legion, we're all motivated to certain degrees by several things. and yes, rebellion is high on the list. even with all the raep jokes you'll hear smattered across the vast 4chan, you'll see the /b/tards have a degree of respect for women and humanity. ( for the best example i can think of, i don't suppose you've heard of the blindmute loli guy, have you? http://www.wikichan.org/index.php?title=Blindmute_Loli&printable=yes the saga is ongoing, but i can't think of many nineteen year olds who'd be willing to do whatever he can to adopt/help out a child like this. ) we just like to make a huge joke of it. at least it's a healthier outlet for anonymous than to say/do these things in real life. if that kind of humour can be limited to the internet, the better for everyone else. i think that's why this search is only half-serious. half for the lulz, and half for the defend yourself/get your mom therapy.

    OH. okay. as long as it's some kind of established slang. i'd not heard it before, and it was making me cringe to read it. >_o also, you may have a point with the "myn thy hyrpyns". i think it's time for some photoshooping.

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  75. "Well, it's like everything else: as long as the individual isn't a total asshole, what might be eyeball-claw-hammer inducing with some other fuckwit is merely a possibly even endearing quirk that may or may not annoy depending on what kind of humor one is in."

    Precisely.

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  76. I don't feel the least bit bad for these people. In fact I feel worse for BB than I do for Seelhoff.

    These people have been using intellectually dishonest tactics for a while now, and I'm glad they got to learn that they're not the only ones with machiavellian tendencies.

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  77. "for the best example i can think of, i don't suppose you've heard of the blindmute loli guy, have you? http://www.wikichan.org/index.php?title=Blindmute_Loli&printable=yes the saga is ongoing, but i can't think of many nineteen year olds who'd be willing to do whatever he can to adopt/help out a child like this."

    Thanks for that link. I wish that guy the best of luck... he certainly is doing a good thing showing that kid somebody loves her.

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  78. "These people have been using intellectually dishonest tactics for a while now, and I'm glad they got to learn that they're not the only ones with machiavellian tendencies."

    Part of me is glad of that too, though I think the lesson is probably lost on these people. They'll take anything from the experience BUT "don't be such a jerk," I expect.

    However, I also don't think looking up personal information is right. That takes things out of the realm of "someone needs to teach you the Internet's not yours."

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  80. Hey lady,


    You spelt "women" wrong.

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  81. My reasoning for telling /b/randon the truth about what his mother things goes far beyond lulz. There are some things more important than the lulz. BitingBeaver is mentally damaged, I feel that she may be and is definitely becoming a danger to her son. He needs to know what's going on and possible be placed in protective custody.

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  82. you are truly in touch with how shit works in the real world. 5 internets for you.

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  83. Hey, just something from the earlier post on Jenna Jameson, I'm not a racist, but I wouldn't want to have sex with a black woman or any of the other darker races. It's nothing against them, I am just not attracted to them, plain and simple. If I see Tyra Banks I don't think "Damn that's hot! I'd hit that!", I just see a woman as herself. Jenna may have the same view, not racism, just no attraction.

    Also, If I were BitingBeaver's son I would have been checking the internet from the library or something to get away from that batshit insane whackjob and let everyone know that I knew what was going on. That would also probably bring the hacker raids down or stop them completely (doubtful) and just cause a couple days of jubilation for them.

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  84. Ok, i'm 14 and I use at porn regularly.
    I think that i'm old enough to understand what i'm doing.
    I have a great respect for everyone, and porn isn't turning me into some sex-drived maniac or a pervert.
    I know this sounds silly coming from a teenager but i really think some parents need to be less controlling.
    Yes, you should know where your kids are and make sure that they are safe at ALL times, but you don't need to control his every move.
    It's only natural to be curious of porn and women in general, but thats just him growing up.

    Peace out, Kieren

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  85. WTF ARE YOU BITCHES DOING OUT IF THE KITCHEN?

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  86. The reason many feminists have a problem with porn cause they view it as degrading to women. Personally I believe that the majority of feminists are unable to get a man and turn into man haters. Personally, if these women in these films believed they were doing degrading work, they would stop doing it. But you fail to see this and decide to set out on a personal crusade against men cause you cannot get one. And if you are thinking "why cannot I get a man?" It is due to your radical feminism. Not even other women like that kind of shit.

    P.S.
    bitches should be in the kitchen making me a sandwich, naked, and not hairy.

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  87. There are no girls on the internets, gb2 kitchen

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  88. 90% of all non anon comments made me want to bash my head against my fucking desk. I consider myself fairly socially liberal, but this shit is fucking ridiculous, and in fact is in every sense regressive

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